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Episode thirty six

Ep. 36: A deadly chat with Corey Tutt

Yvette Poshoglian:

Welcome to the Virtual Staff Room, a podcast made for teachers by teachers and all with a dash of educational technology thrown in. We're joining you today from our Technology for Learning Studios on Gadigal Land in Sydney and pay respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people past, present, and emerging and those joining us and listening to us today.

My name is Yvette Poshoglian and today I'm joined by my colleagues, Joel Concohen and Amy Phillips and we're meeting someone very inspirational in the STEM world. Corey Tutt has been the name on our lips and you might know his incredible organization, Deadly Science. Corey is a Kamilaroi man from the Illawarra region of New South Wales and is an entrepreneur, author, and the founder of Deadly Science, an initiative providing STEM resources to remote schools across Australia.

Corey's incredible book, The First Scientists, has won incredible acclaim and plenty of awards across the publishing and education spectra and most importantly, he has really changed the landscape of how we can use First Nation science as a starting point to explore STEM in the classroom. It's also a fabulous exploration of First Nations technology. We featured Corey in our T4L Kids magazine and we are so thrilled to have you here in person today, Corey. We know that there are plenty of teachers who'll be listening and who will also be thrilled. Welcome to the Virtual Staff Room.

Corey Tutt:

Thank you for having me and it's a great virtual staff room, plenty of food. Yeah. It's great.

Yvette Poshoglian:

It's probably better than what's on offer out there so great to have you here. We're going to kick off and just ask you, how was Deadly Science born?

Corey Tutt:

Yeah. It's a really interesting question. I started my career as a zookeeper, so I left school at 16 and I guess for any young people listening, and of course any teachers, not every road is a direct road. Sometimes, you have to hit a few potholes and do a few U-turns to get to where you're going but the most important thing is that the key ingredient to anyone that has any kind of success is probably being a good person first, is probably the best way to go about life.

I was working at Shoalhaven Zoo which is down in Nowra and down in Nowan Country and I was picking up snakes and feeding crocodiles and fighting monkeys, that kind of job. One thing led to another and unfortunately, I had a personal tragedy that forced me to fall out of love with the animal industry and I'd grown up just adoring animals and science and I really liked Harry Butler which a lot of you probably too young to know who that is but he was a herpetologist from the '70s.

When I was growing up, I didn't have access to the new books or... I was relying on books in the 70s and 80s and I end up shearing Alpacas for a little bit and that might seem like a really manual job, but you actually have to think of a lot of STEM things for that. You have to make sure your equipment is up-to-date and clean and if you are doing what I was doing and injecting Alpacas, you have to learn how to safely do injections of worming medicine and grinding their teeth as well because their teeth unfortunately grow too long.

There's their toenails as well. If you don't cut them, they get infections and they die. So there's all these things you've got to consider. You've got to consider how you shear the animals. You can't shear black animals and then white animals because the black fleece gets mixed with the white fleece and it becomes problematic. So although shearing seems like a very manual job, it's actually... It's a very hard job because you also have to keep count of how many animals you shear because if you don't keep count of that, then you can't charge the person the right amount.

So I learned all those skills and then I came and worked at the RSPCA and then I worked at the Animal Welfare League where I met my wife. She picked me up from a pound and I'd end up going and doing an apprenticeship at the Garvan Institute where I became an animal technician and started working in labs and always been this person that I get bored quite easily and it's probably a bit of ADHD to be honest but I always really like to challenge myself and do other things.

So working in the lab, there's so many different things you can learn, especially when you haven't gone to university, the traditional way, you haven't learned those skills. So I learned a lot of the skills like taking the DNA of lab rodents, for example. Taking a little bit of the ear and putting it through a machine and then putting data into a computer. Spinning blood, tattooing mice as well which is really hard because they got tiny tails and I realized at one point that I'd learned everything that I could learn possibly in that job but there was something missing in my life and I think part of that was my family from Walgett.

I grew up in Dapto. I had a really great Aboriginal grandfather who was a Kamilaroi man and shout out to any Walford's listening. But for me, he was always big on read, just read. If you can read, eventually, you'll write the books. So I learned how to read and it was very, very hard for me to learn how to read and get an education but I just really wanted to make him proud and make my mom and my family proud and I did that but if I could give that to other kids whilst I was working at the University of Sydney, I just wanted to yarn with them and talk to them about science and talk to them what I was doing for a career and it became... I went and volunteered in another charity and they stopped doing this but it was really challenging at the time because I'm a pretty engaging person, especially when I'm passionate about STEM and science and I probably get that from my zookeeping background from holding snakes and telling people, "Look, it's a tiger snake. Get excited about it."

But it was really challenging then because all those kids would just love talking about science down in Redfern and it was about 2018 and I would do it every Friday. And then, the challenge was I was working in the lab, working with a boss that probably wasn't as accepting of First Nations people as probably what they should have been but I had to do the trade off. I had to work later to have that time off to work with those kids but I loved doing it and I just... The name Deadly Science came from this young Aboriginal fella from Redfern. He said to me, he goes, "This is deadly and this is science," and he really wanted to work at Taronga Zoo and I was like that, "I thought about that name a lot," and I thought, "You know what? That's a good name to call this," so we called it that.

And then, it progressed from there. I found a school in the middle of the NT that had as little as 15 books and it's a library and I know all the teachers listening to this would know that some schools don't have the resources that they deserve and that's a systematic problem of society for not treating everyone equally and I just decided to do something about it.

So I went to Dymocks and we have a word which is a bit of a slang word and it means wombat. Where we say, "Womba," when you're being a bit crazy, being a bit of wombat, and I'm a little bit crazy and I went to a Dymocks down Broadway one day and I dropped $1000 at Dymocks and walked out with too many books and I just started posting them off to schools and obviously, that became too expensive and my wife was like, at the time, "I think you've got a gambling habit. You've got no money," and for that...

It became much more than just the books because it became a bit of a ritual. For a couple of years, I'd work in the lab all day, get up at 5:00, work in the lab, finish at 2:00, pack some books in the office, use my lunch break to email all these schools and ask them what they needed. And then, I would go and post those books off and then I'd go work at the Hanrob Pet Hotels at Duffys Forest and work some more. And then, I'd come home about 8:00 and then repeat and I did it for such a long time that it became... I started putting it on Twitter after a while and it exploded.

And then, I got a logo and then that logo turned into shirts and I got a GoFundMe page because Professor Maryanne Large and Alice Motion from the University of Sydney said they could probably see I was working myself into the ground and to be honest, some things don't change and they said, "You should get a GoFundMe page," and I came up with this idea, if you donated $30 or more, you'd get a Deadly Science t-shirt and it was just simply a black t-shirt with this logo on it.

Before I knew it, I'd been nominated for the Young Australian of the Year and to be honest, coming from a single parent household where I had a stepfather but he wasn't really a part of my life, it was really challenging because I thought the first email I got from Australian of the Year was a joke and I ignored it and before I knew it, it was, "You're nominated for Young Australian of the Year," and how does a young person prepare for a life where you've suddenly got a camera in your face and someone's celebrating you when you don't get that acknowledgement?

I didn't really win awards at school. I won them for football but that was because I beat a bunch of kids up and scored tries and it was quite a big thing for me as an adult because you feel like this is imposter syndrome because you're like... And then ever since that day, my life changed forever. I've been able to do some incredible things and meet some incredible people and also employ some incredible people that are now part of this thing that I created but I also consider those people family. I talk to all my staff most days and I always ask them how their families are going because I really am grateful for everything that we've built.

Amy Phillips:

Amazing story. I'm blown away. I don't even know how many ways we could go down there but I know there's some great advice for the alpaca farmer amongst us, Cenovech, she'll take a little bit away there. But Corey, tell us why it's important we learn about First scientists.

Corey Tutt:

It's really important especially for young people and teachers as well because there's one common denominator that we all have, especially listening to this podcast and this is just a wild assumption, so if it's not for you, I apologize. But the image of a scientist, we normally see your Thomas Edison's, your Albert Einstein's, and don't get me wrong, they're great scientists, part of history, but we don't learn about David Unaipon, we don't learn about Indigenous people, people of color, and especially women as well that have been practicing STEM for thousands and thousands of years.

For me, the most important thing is that we delete the word can't from our vocabulary and we change it to you can. Because if I can be an example to people listening, and if I'm not your flavor, then that's cool but I am a kid from Dapto who left school at 16 who now participates in research, who leads it, who's an author, and I've never received an Indigenous scholarship for that. I've never had a leg up, I've had to work for it, and for me, I wanted to create a book and a program that science is not defined by the lab coat, it's not defined by the person wearing it, science is all around us.

And the fact that in First Nations people we've had... First, we've had forensic science which no one's really touched on. We've had astronomy which is pretty widely publicized and I guess has a... Astronomy is such a popular form of science. But with my book, I tried to touch on most forms of science that probably haven't been touched on nearly enough and I guess for me, the best thing about writing a book was it came out during lockdown and I had so many copies in my house but there was children in this country that didn't have access to internet, that it was widely assumed that everyone at home has a safe place to learn and be part of school.

So social media was really brilliant because I wasn't doing anything in my time, just like a lot of people sitting at home, and I was able to put it out on social media to any families and schools. "Do you want some books? Because I can sign them and I'll write little messages in them," and I sent books to the Torres Strait, I sent books to Dareton, I sent books to Walgett, I sent to Goodooga and you might not hear anything.

But then, a year or two later I get a message from an Aboriginal woman who's like, "Thank you so much for giving my son a copy of First Scientist. He absolutely adores you and that book is not put down in two years," and for me that's a very special thing and yes, I've won a lot of accolades and I win a lot of awards and I'm honored in so many ways but that there's the best prize of all because without saying really egotistical, that little kid reminds me of myself when I was young and maybe in a weird way, I write the books that I wish that I had as a proud Aboriginal man when I was young.

Joachim Cohen:

Oh, wow. Corey, I think you've really changed the narrative in the way that schools view the past and also celebrate different inventors and inventions in such an absolutely engaging way and I guess teachers and students, they've learned so much from reading your book, do you have a favorite invention that's inside there?

Corey Tutt:

Oh, I mean, the hardest thing for me is it's hard to choose because it's like choosing a favorite student, you can't. There's so many.

Yvette Poshoglian:

Oh no. You can have a favorite student.

Corey Tutt:

I mean, Charlie from Robinson River was one that really hit me and there's been a number of kids over the years that have really impacted me personally and have given me a real driving force of why I do what I do and I think the biggest thing for me with the book and I guess celebrating and to properly answer your question is that I really liked David Unaipon's invention of the shearing handpiece because without an electric handpiece, shearing Alpacas would be very difficult. I'd also have a very terrible haircut if it wasn't for the rotating blades. But then, where I'm from in Gamilaraay Country, we have a complex river system and fish traps of what fed our families and ancestors and elders for thousands of years and they're designed to...

When I wrote the Acknowledgement of Country in the first part of the book, I was sitting on a plane and I was watching Australia just burn and it really affected me and I came up with this... I just kept thinking this saying and it must have been... That may be one of my ancestors telepathically coming back and letting me know these words but I kept thinking, "If you care for the country, the country will care for you," and it just stuck in my head and you'll see in the front cover of First Scientists, the orange amber with the leaves coming down and I wrote on a napkin and my wife was sitting next to me and she's like, "What are you writing?" I'm like, "I'm writing an acknowledgement of country," and she's having a bit of a laugh at me at the time but it was so true.

When we look at the first fish traps, we look at the way that Aboriginal people manage the land through intelligent management of fire and burning the land appropriately. Everything was designed to care for country so that we could have animals, we could have plants, we could have a viable landscape for future generations, and I think that's one of my favorite inventions because it's so true and it's so needed today, so relevant.

Amy Phillips:

Thanks. I want to read it out loud but I feel like I'm going to cry because I'm the big silk but I just get so moved by those kinds of things but beautiful messages. Now, you have a new book coming out and that highlights about 70 different First Nations exceptional role models across a huge range of areas. How do you feel about being a role model to our kids and how can we continue to support and promote other First Nations role models across a range of careers and pathways?

Corey Tutt:

It's an interesting one because I don't think you really... I don't think there's a form where you go and sign up to be a role model and I never intended to... I'm not perfect and I never intended to be someone that people would follow and take advice from or look up to but with great power comes great responsibility. And for me, the best part of my day is sometimes when I'm at a writer's festival, parents will drive their kids hours and hours and hours just to get a book signed or get a photo and I'm just really humbled by that because it's a big deal for me and I guess, I don't want to be the person that doesn't enjoy that because it is really enjoyable.

When you get the messages and you get the support, it does make me a bit emotional because I think being a role model, it's not about the things you do, it's not about the lessons that you've learned, it's not about the mistakes you make, it's about being just a good person and being humble about and just being proud of who you are and it's taken me a long time to be proud of who I am because I've grown up in a very difficult place and I'm more proud of the fact that I can impact people in this way, that something that I do can bring them so much joy that if what I do in my books and the things that I do can impact someone so much that it can be the difference between them having a good day and a great day.

If I can do that every single day, regardless of what's going on in my world or in my life, then it's a mission accomplished and doing that for the power of STEM just makes it so much better because science is deadly and I love being a nerd. I love learning about different animals. I love learning about different technologies and I really... And any young people, teachers out there, I just love the fact that something that I created that never in my wildest dreams did I think that I'd be able to go on TV or have books or have a following and things like that. Yeah. It's a bit surreal for me. I've never got used to it and I don't think I ever want to get used to it. I'd rather just be humble and enjoy just making people proud and smile and I think that's the best part of Deadly Science and what I do.

Yvette Poshoglian:

Well, strap in because you are a role model, not only to the kids but also to us as educators because your book has sparked so many conversations within our team and this is what we do but we've gone down different pathways since we've started really exploring your book so you are having a lasting impact not only to the students but also to all those teachers out there.

Leads me to my next question which is how important is it for all the students and educators to understand Indigenous science in particular and the inventions and how is that going to shape STEM education into the future? What is that going to look like for a young Australian student or aboriginal Australian student out there? How are they going to interpret this?

Corey Tutt:

There's no secret that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are underrepresented in STEM. There's also no... It's also not a mystery to why and part of that is you can't be what you can't see. Very cliche words and I think I've used it a bit too much so I'm trying to get away from that. But it's so important for young teachers to be supported because when a young teacher leaves university and sometimes, they're at university, they're asked to embed indigenous perspectives in the curriculum and often, the people who are asking to do that aren't really connected with Indigenous people or First Nations people. So we're putting a lot of pressure on young people to learn about things they never had the opportunity to learn about.

As hard as it is, culture has been stolen from First Nations childrens in this country and a byproduct of that is that we are putting incredible amounts of stress on our education system because we know it's not perfect and we're trying to build the puzzle pieces and the Lego blocks to build a better relationship and have true reconciliation with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in this country. Some schools do it really well, some don't but that's just life and I think that teaching First Nations perspectives in STEM, sometimes the lessons of the past can be the answers for the future. A lot of what we do, especially with First Scientists, is you'll notice on the cover the mulberry in lab coats, because the images of what we see of the scientists are generally of old white men and there's nothing wrong with being an old white man, but when you just see that as an image and you link that to being a scientist...

So one of the exercises I do with kids is that I ask them to give me a description of a scientist and they always give me, if I was doing a sketch on what that looks like, I'd be just drawing Albert Einstein all the time. So for me, it's teaching about Aboriginal people being the first scientist of this land. Not only is to help strengthen the relationship from teacher to student but also broaden the horizons of the individual so that when the time comes and they have children, they can actually educate their kids on what is right and what is wrong and the true history of STEM in this country.

I think that yes, it is a very popular space, but we've got hardly any resources in this space and the hope for me when I wrote First Scientists is that someone is going to pick up my book and say, "I can do a better book than this," and I really want them to pick it up and do that because we need more resources and resources help our teachers so I'm very grateful that we've got a lot of great teachers. I love looking at My Gifted Teacher Instagram page. They're big supporters of me and Deadly Science and the ideas that teachers have now, especially young teachers where they're spending their own money in classrooms to do themed events for NAIDOC Week and celebrating First Nations culture. I wish that I'd had that when I was younger.

When I was young, we didn't even have acknowledgement of country. We didn't have Welcome to Country at school. If you were an Indigenous kid, you got bundled into a bus and sent to Wollongong University and that was the Indigenous program. But now, it's so immersive and we should be proud of how far we've come and I think sometimes we get trapped in the negative of how far we need to go and I think that teachers are doing the best they can to embed these knowledges in the curriculum and it's really important that as aboriginal people in the education space, as tiring as it is, we should not forget the role we play in trying to help create resources to help get more respect for our people, especially in the STEM space.

Joachim Cohen:

Oh, Corey, I just don't think you know how much impact your book's made. Every time I read it and I show it to somebody, the wow is just how we feel. I think everyone feels goosebumps as they start to read it. Thank you is all I can say and I think going on from that theme, how do we really inspire the young, Indigenous, and First Nations innovators of tomorrow?

Corey Tutt:

Well, it's funny you say that about the book because when I wrote it, I remember just bawling my eyes out when I sent it off to the publisher because I was telling my wife, "My career's over. I'm going to be... This book is going to bomb and everyone's just going to attack me online and it's going to be horrible," and then... Because the hardest thing, and I feel this now with my new book and I think I'll always feel this, is that when you create something and you... I don't think you can really call an author an artist but I feel like an artist a little bit. You create something and it's like... I imagine it's similar to someone that paints a painting and the first time you see it, the first time it's in a Word document and you write it and you get people to look over it and they go, "Wow, this is awesome."

And then the second stage is you get the PDF with all the... You work with the artists and you create all the concepts and you do it and you've got an idea of what it looks like in your head and it looks like this book, unfortunately. "This is what I wanted it to look like," so it was what I envisioned it to look like. So seeing it in the flesh. And then the day you get the first copy, it comes to your mailbox and you open it up and it's this document which is just a book is in your hands and you're like, "This has come out of my brain," which is a bit strange.

And then, there's the nervous weight of, "Who's going to buy the first book?" And then, it comes out and then someone tags you on Instagram. It's like, "Wow, I've got this book. It's really awesome," and then you saw what you just said there but in between all that, there's this anxiety of, "How is it going to go? How is the people going to react to this?" because it's this book that I've identified that we've needed and then I've decided to just break that concept.

And I guess for how we inspire young people, it's really simple. There's two ingredients we need in this life and this life is very, very short and that's passion and purpose and a lot of young people have passion and we beat it out of them. We beat it out of them at primary school when they get older because we say, "Stop playing with cars," and taking them apart, "Go and do your maths." We beat it out of them in Year 8 or Year 9 and when you're starting to work experience for the first time and they say, "You should really focus on getting a trade or becoming a hairdresser," which are all noble careers, but that person might want to be a doctor or they might want to be a vet, they might want to be a crazy zookeeper that leaves and goes to Western Australia as a child, and we actually discourage our kids unfortunately in some way, and this is changing.

But previously, we discouraged our kids from being able to create and be able to think and we should be encouraging our children to, if they want to, start businesses and start and be a bit more entrepreneurial and being able to push the narrative. To be brutally honest with you, I probably didn't really know how to read or write until I was in my 20s properly and I've had to teach myself that. So it's possible and I think to quote my cousin, Carly Captain, "Dream big and imagine what if," and I think that it's such a beautiful tagline and if there's anything that I can share with my story with you is that I'm a Kamilaroi man, he left school at 16, he comes from a pretty broken part of Australia in...

At the time, Dapto was pretty rough, Walgett's pretty rough sometimes, and if I can come out through the other side of that, write books, work with the Formula 1 team, McLaren, and get my logo on the side of McLaren car, then anyone can do it and the only difference between me and you is that at some point I stopped listening to what other people told me that I could be and I started believing in myself. I wish I could tell you the time that happened but I think I was just sick of just being told that I was not going to achieve anything. But the difference now for me and you is that I'm here to tell you that you can do it. Not that you have to do it, but you can and that's the most important message.

Amy Phillips:

Oh, it's such a great message for our kids and our teachers as well and I've resonated with a lot that you've spoken about today. I came into the Department of Ed as an identified Aboriginal teacher and there were two things I noticed straight away when I got into teaching and there were two areas that teachers were scared of teaching. It was Technology and STEM and Aboriginal education and various reasons, unknowns and things like that. But if you have a room of teachers in front of you, what's your best piece of advice you can give them?

Corey Tutt:

Well, they say don't work with children or animals and I decided to do both and I love it and I wouldn't change it for the world. I would say to teachers is that it's really easy to get bogged down in the nitty-gritty and the politics of teaching but teachers are like scientists and I'll tell you why. A scientist in a lab that is looking for a cure for cancer or is researching crystal methamphetamine or mental health or maybe they're trying to save the bilby from going extinct or a weird obscure frog that no one knows about, it's in the Peruvian Jungle and it's only 50 of them left and to be honest, most people wouldn't care if it just went extinct, but they're desperately trying to save this frog.

Every single scientist, whether it's blue, white, purple, yellow, doesn't matter, they're all working to make tomorrow's better for something or someone else, improve some part of the world in some way and I think if teachers are the same way, you don't go into teaching because... You might go into teaching and go, "Oh, that's a job I can do," but you don't stay in for teaching to be that person. You stay into teaching because these young minds, these young minds that make you feel every emotion known to man: frustration, anger, excitement, laughter, love, you are trying to mold them into the people that can function in society, get back to society, and achieve their dreams.

And I would say to teachers out there that don't get lost in your why because there's a reason why you're doing what you're doing and for the most part, I think most teachers are just really good people that are trying to do stuff for other people and I think that the empathy and compassion for that shouldn't be lost.

Amy Phillips:

Amazing. There'll be so many teachers out there that really listened to that message. A final question, what's next for Deadly Science and for you personally?

Corey Tutt:

I can't stress enough that Deadly Science is... It's more than just me now and it has always been more than just me. It's been a community, it's been all the mob, and all the communities that I've worked with, they've always felt like they're part of us and I've been lucky enough to... We don't get a hell of a lot of funding or donations but we've been able to... I always say to our staff, "We're like a welterweight fighting Muhammad Ali sometimes," and we pack a few punches and it's really important that people realize with Deadly Science that there is eight, soon to be nine, people working with me to try and work with over 800 schools and communities providing things like Lego, books, Deadly Learner Sessions, connecting schools with scientists, working on country to develop new STEM kits that include cultural knowledge in them.

Building this thing that hopefully can support all of you listening and if you do have the opportunity to help out and join us and help us grow this thing, because it's growing before my very eyes, it's growing and I'm just really grateful for all the staff, people that volunteer their time for us, that donate, the schools, the students that... They love Deadly Science.

Sometimes you see videos of them chanting Deadly Science and I feel like it's a bit surreal for me because it's a long way from the lab full of little mice chattering away and I'm trying to pack these books and resources and yeah, I guess what's next for Deadly Science is that we really want to help all kids everywhere. I mean, we're going to be doing some stuff with juvenile justice centers. Tomorrow, I'm going to Captain Starlight Children's Ward and I'm going to spend some time with some kids that are doing it a bit tough and I really just want to grow Deadly Science so that I'm no longer the face of it, that we have multiple faces of Indigenous people running this charity that can take some of these opportunities and just fly.

For me, what's next for me is a really tough question. I've started working on this new book which is a reptile book actually and again, it's similar to First Scientists. It's probably the book that I always dreamed of having as a kid but I'm now starting to develop the concept and the ideas and that's going through all the nations and actually renaming the animals what they originally were called.

So there's animals such as the bearded dragons that have names, crocodiles which in the [foreign language 00:37:22], they're called [foreign language 00:37:25]. These are all animals that have names that have existed for thousands and thousands of years, they have stories, and I'm trying to put that all together and create something that is hopefully going to inspire a new generation of herpetologists and scientists but also just bring joy to people that like animals.

The other thing for me is that I realize that the platform I've created and the opportunities I've created, it's probably time to, hopefully with some more funding and some more support, to actually step aside a bit and allow some other young Indigenous people that probably didn't get that opportunity to step up and rise above and take some of these opportunities so Deadly Science can be more than just the guy from Dapto that created it and it means that I'll probably have to focus on other areas and write a few more books but that's what's next.

Yvette Poshoglian:

Corey, we really look forward to watching the next chapter unfold for you. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom with us today and joining us here on Technology for Learning Home Turf. We've come to the end of this episode, although desperately we don't want it to end. If you have a chance, pick up the book, check out Deadly Science. Thank you for joining us, Corey.

Corey Tutt:

Thanks for having me.

Yvette Poshoglian:

If your school has a story to tell, we would love to hear from you. Thank you so much to not only the guests joining us today and those behind the scenes at Deadly Science. We'd also like to thank the production team and Enha for all the behind the scenes work here to bring this podcast to you. Thanks for listening.

Amy Phillips:

And just a little note, please be aware that all views expressed by us podcast presenters are our own personal opinions and not representative of the New South Wales Department of Education. Discussions aren't endorsements of third party products, services, or events. We look forward to chatting with you next time.