The Virtual Staffroom Podcast
Episode 11: Digital Wellbeing
Yvette Poshoglian:
Welcome to the Virtual Staffroom, a podcast made for teachers by teachers and all with a bit of educational technology thrown in. My name is Yvette Poshoglian, and today I'm joined by my two co-conspirators in the Virtual Staffroom, Linda Lazenby and Joachim Cohen. Hello guys.
Linda Lazenby:
Hello.
Joachim Cohen:
Hey.
Yvette Poshoglian:
What have we got today? We've got a fabulous discussion talking about digital health, and we're going to be meeting an expert who's going to share some tips for us. Plus, all the usual resources. As we start off the new school and work year, it's often the time when we're all a little bit more reflective on how the previous year went work-wise and life-wise. We think about how efficient we were, how productive our working hours were and what we want to do more or less of in the new year. Our guest today is Dr. Kristy Goodwin, and she can help us significantly with this. She could also help us plan our hours out better and is an absolute guru on using technology safely and well in education. Welcome Kristy.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Great to be here!
Linda Lazenby:
Kristy, it's so nice to have you. Can you tell us about your career journey? Where did you start and where are you now?
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
I actually started off as a primary school and early childhood educator. I taught for 14 years in a range of settings in both public and independent schools. Then I dabbled in the academic life. I completed a PhD where I looked at the impact that technology was having on young children's learning and also their development. Then I became what I described as a frustrated academic. I can see all of this wonderful research being done in institutions and being disseminated amongst the academic community. It was published in peer reviewed journals that were shared at academic conferences. I remembered as a teacher that often this information wasn't disseminated to the people on the ground. I wasn't until I had a life accident, I will call it, I was visiting a local health care professional when my first son was born and now he was born after the iPad. The very first iPad was released about six months after its initial release.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
We were doing the six month developmental check with my son and the health care nurse turned and asked me what apps I was using with my son at six months of age. I thought, well, this is someone checking if I'm walking the talk. I thought she's seeing whether I really do allow my son to use technology. I said, "Well, he's not having any screen time, six months of age." She leaned a little closer and she wagged her finger and she did the 'tut, tut, tut' sound and proceeded to tell me that the ripe old age of six months of age, my son was going to fall behind academically because he wasn't being dunked in the digital stream. Now I hadn't been caffeinated, and could not come up with a coherent response. I was absolutely outraged that we had a health professional giving out grossly inaccurate advice about screens.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
I went home and when the baby was having a nap, I started ironically, a social media campaign that babies need laps not apps. That social media campaign went viral. I realised while he was having this extra long nap, I was going to write a book about raising children in the digital world. After that point in time, I became a speaker and researcher, but someone who took the research and science and translated it into what parents, educators, and health professionals need to know. There's a lot of, I call it guilt, grief and guesswork as parents are trying to navigate this digital terrain. I try to take that away by providing people with science-backed solution and information.
Joachim Cohen:
I think you really know that there's so much information out there and people can start to think that they aren't doing the right thing for their young people. What tips do you have on how schools and society can work with parents and carers to create digitally healthy young people?
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Yes. I think it's really important to acknowledge that the colloquial term we use is 'infobesity'. The average adult now consumes 3.6 gigabytes worth of data every single day, and it's just mind blowing. Parents are feeling really confused and conflicted often because we're given contradictory advice about screen time. On one hand, we're told our primary school children particularly kindergartens should know how to code, then on the flip side of the coin, we're told digital abstinence, ban screens, minimise their use, they're going to harm and erode childrens' development.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
I hear both perspectives because I work with parents delivering seminars, but I also work closely with schools and educators and educational leaders, and I hear their frustrations. It's really interesting when you see, I sort of sit on the fence and hear both sides of the story. From a parent's perspective, we have parents worried about children being provided with digital devices or being expected to have access to them at home and the increase risks and the perils that poses in terms of their safety, excessive screen time, dealing I know like many parents do with the dreaded techno tantrum, but then on the other side of the fence, I hear from educators, their frustrations because so much of their pastoral care time now is often consumed dealing with digital dilemmas that took place, not inside the school gates, but took place at home on digital devices whilst kids were in their parents' care.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
I think it's really important as school communities that we empower parents with evidence-based, research-based information about how they can, I call it being the pilot, not the passenger of the digital plane and giving parents practical research-based strategies so that they can be that pilot of the digital plane. They can start to understand, I think we need to stop demonising technology, it's here to stay, whether you love it or loathe it, what we need to do is equip parents and educators with the right strategies so that we can embrace the digital world, but do so in a way that doesn't derail children's development and adolescence development, and do so in a way that supports not distracts their learning.
Yvette Poshoglian:
Kristy, using that pilot analogy and that perspective into this, I guess the more positive end of the spectrum, have you got examples from either corporate or education spheres, that have an excellent use of technology that encourages digital wellbeing?
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
I do. I've got three favourite digital technologies that are being embraced, as you said, in both the corporate space and in the educational space. My all-time favourite is a tool called RescueTime, and it works on Android or iOS devices, mobile and desktop computers. RescueTime actually monitors and helps you to manage the amount of time that you're spending online. It can also work as a prohibition tool. So if you don't want to go down the digital rabbit hole, so you don't want to go into your inbox, you're an educator and you want to spend this time working on your teaching and learning program, you can actually set hours where email is blocked. Maybe it's checking news sites or the cricket scores, when you really should be doing some of your deep work, you can actually set some restricted or prohibition hours up.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
It also sends you a weekly update. So you can actually say because so many, I'm hearing employees from corporate and educational space are saying, I just don't know where my time goes, 26% of our work is now completed as adults outside the regular Workday, so work is now bleeding into our personal lives. I highly recommend RescueTime. It's ideal if you're a knowledge worker, since you're spending a lot of your time on a computer or a technology. It's great at monitoring and managing your time.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
My second favourite tool, and this works with students, it works with adults, I've been working with a rather large financial institution, and one of their C-suite leaders is actually using this tool as well. And it's an app again, Android and iOS compatible, it's an app called Forest. Forest users, game-based principles to incentivise your focus time online. Using the forest app, you set a nominal amount of time that you want to stay focused and you don't want to pick up your phone or open another browser or dive out of the word document you're supposed to be working on. Forest app will reward you. You grow a plant, at the end of your last period of time if you resist the temptation of opening your device.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
If however you succumb to your tech temptation and you unlock your phone midway through your focus work period, a little tree shrivels and dies on the screen. Melodramatic, it sounds really trivial. It sounds very simplistic. Can I tell you, it is highly effective. Using games based principles and incentives and rewards, it is a great way to engage in focused work. My third favourite is a tech tool that I know a lot of adults use, but I'm also seeing a lot of secondary school students using it. It's an app called Pocket. Pocket Lets you archive and curate your digital resources so that you can access them at a set and convenient time. So if you don't want to go down the YouTube rabbit hole, so you get a notification on your device telling you that somebody you subscribed to has uploaded a video and you know you'll go down that digital rabbit hole very quickly, you can pop that particular video that you want to watch into your Pocket app or web browser. And it will curate that so you can access it again at a convenient time.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
So there are the three tools, RescueTime, Forest app, and Pocket. And they're really effective tools that put some boundaries and borders around our tech use. Because the problem with the online world, the reason that we all find it hard to switch off is because we never feel done. It's called the state of insufficiency. And the online world is this bottomless bowl. Using these tools, we start to put in place some boundaries and parameters so that we're not constantly going down there.
Joachim Cohen:
Kristy, I think that Pocket app is one for me. I know I get a great deal of anxiety when I think I might miss that, I might forget that, I might not keep up to date with everything. Having a place where I can store those to go and look later is fantastic. Thank you. That tip is going in my list, I can tell you. We've got all our teachers out there and we are talking a lot about the classroom, but beyond that, they are big users of tech. You've given us some great tools already, but did you have any, maybe more hacks and advice that might be specifically for teachers to help manage their digital wellbeing?
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Absolutely. Teachers are predominantly knowledge workers, so they are spending inordinate amounts of time online. The research, however tells us that the average knowledge worker has just two hours and 48 minutes of deep work time these days, because most of their other time is consumed with distractions and diversions. So I say to teachers, there's four pillars for digital wellbeing. The first pillar is that you have to establish digital borders and boundaries where you no go tech zones when you're at home or perhaps in your classroom. What are the tools and technologies that you will use at particular times? We know for most knowledge workers, our Achilles heel is our inbox. Many of us are a slave to emails and feel constantly overloaded, digitally bombarded. So come up with the parameters and rules for you, and at both a personal and a professional level.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Can you have a digital bedtime? Now, ideally we would be unplugging from all devices, but particularly handheld devices that emit blue light and stop our body, making the melatonin that we need to fall asleep quickly and easily. Ideally, we'd be having a digital bedtime 60 to 90 minutes before we want to fall asleep. I often recommend families establish a landing zone or a particular place in the house where all the digital devices can go. From a parenting perspective, that can be a cyber safety mechanism that you can put in place. From a personal wellbeing perspective, not having your digital appendage on the bedside table will make a profound impact on both the quality and quantity of your sleep. We know, for example, just seeing your device in close proximity to your bed can be a psychological trigger to cause anxiety and other unhealthy feelings. Definitely establish boundaries.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
The second pillar for wellbeing is to provide neuroproductivity hacks. We know more than ever about how the human brain works, and we need to apply those to our workday. Again, you can extrapolate these if you're an educator into your classroom, and if you're a parent supervising your kids with homework. We know that we are designed to work in short sprints, not marathons. Our brain depletes its resources over long periods of time. We also know we have a natural biological rhythm to be awake and alert. So most of us are either an early bird, a night owl or somewhere in between. What I suggest people do is figure out are you the teacher that makes best use of your time by zooming into the car park at 7:30 in the morning, cranking up the lid to your laptop and doing all the deep work that you need to do free from distraction.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
When you know when your peak energy period is of the day, that's when you have to implement the third pillar of digital wellbeing, and that is building a fortress around your focus. You have to disable as many digital distractions as you can. Even the notification of your emails or your phone vibrating is enough to divert your attention. When we get distracted, it causes something that's known as attention residue. So even though you may resist the urge to open that email, just seeing it dance across your screen or the notification on your phone is enough for your focus to be diverted. We know that when we're doing deep focused work, it takes the average adult, 23 minutes and 15 seconds to reorient their attention after a distraction, it's called the resumption lag. Try to disable, it's massive.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
The fourth one and the one that I know teachers are not particularly great at, and I know when I was a teacher I wasn't, and that is digital disconnection. We need to carve out deliberate blocks of time, where we are not tethered to technology for our psychological wellbeing, for our physical wellbeing. And also as an educator or as a parent wanting to inspire creativity, having unplugged time is critical for ideation, it's critical for problem solving. When we have that unplug time, the part of our brain that's responsible for all our logical thinking and decision-making, our prefrontal cortex, it turns off and it enters what neuroscientists call the, mind wandering mode. We don't get bursts of inspiration while we're working on an Excel spreadsheet. We get those bursts of inspiration when we are unplugged. So there's four pillars, boundaries and borders, applying neuroproductivity hacks, disabling digital distractions, and digital disconnection.
Linda Lazenby:
I was so proud of my inbox earlier, but now there's so many things I need to do better. So I've got some homework clearly. Can I ask you though, what do you think the number one, and I don't like using the word mistake, but what's the one thing that schools could be doing better with their use of technology.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
I think that we need schools, and again I totally acknowledged teachers are doing a marvellous job, especially when we look at what we call the digital penetration rate. These technologies that are entering classrooms that are entering students personal and leisure worlds are just massive. There's something that's called the penetration rate, and it tells us how many years it takes a technology to penetrate to 50 million worldwide users. So dial-up internet took about 13 years, Facebook took four years, YouTube took two years, Angry Birds took 35 days. It took Pokemon Go, one to two days to reach penetration rate. So this is why we're all bamboozled feeling like we're on the back foot, especially if you're working with young people.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
I say, draw on your strengths as an educator or as an adult and go back to what we know for certain. There are principles of wellbeing and principles of learning that haven't changed. We know that the brain hasn't evolved. Yes, we're seeing changes in the brain, but it hasn't evolved to constantly be having information thrusted us. If I was to suggest anything, I think we need schools to explicitly, and this is not to add, I know many teachers will tell you they're suffering from curriculum overload. This is not to pack in something else, this is incidentally teaching teachers, but we need to talk about digital wellbeing and about tools to avoid distraction, because teachers as much as their students, struggle with this.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
We're giving kids powerful and potentially distracting technologies when they're given a tablet or a laptop. Yes, they do have certainly huge educational potential and huge merits in terms of them being a learning tool. But if we're not teaching students how to dominate digital distractions and how to use the tools intentionally and in ways that are congruent with their brain and their body, we are going to see this fallout. That's why I think we're getting this tension between educators, teachers, and educational leaders and parents, because they can see this conflict.
Yvette Poshoglian:
Kristy we're talking about a bit of a push back there. I guess the biggest questions that we have are around the future of school and work, and what the skills that our students are going to need in the future are going to be. What is it going to look like and what are our brains going to look like?
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Regardless of whether you love it, although that technology is here to stay, it's not going to go away, this is not just a fad or a phase or a new acronym that we're throwing at schools. I think that we need to use technology in really intentional ways. We're going to see huge changes, particularly in artificial intelligence particularly with augmented reality and the exciting potential that they offer our learners. But I think the onus is on us determining the educational benefits of these tools and not simply imposing them or introducing them into the curriculum. The pushback that we're seeing, thanks to shows on digital distraction, the pushback that we're seeing is that people are becoming more aware of the overwhelm and what I call techno stress or digital burnout that many of us are experiencing firsthand.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
This is where we fall back to, what are the benefits that technology offers us, and how can we exploit, how can we maximise those benefits? But at the same time, how can we minimise the potential pitfalls? The super skill of the 21st century, the most fundamental skill that our students and if we're really honest, adults also need to cultivate, is the skill of paying attention. We are now living, Tristan Harris, who is an ex Google design ethicist, which I think is just a fascinating job title in and of itself, but Tristan Harris says we are living in the attention economy. And if you cannot 'undirect', orient and control your attention in the 21st century, you are going to become digitally distracted.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
If we can appreciate that as adults, we can understand why our students, primary and secondary students with their developing brain architecture, struggle with the digital pool and the sensory seductions that the online world offers them. The online world is literally often I liken it to a sensory smorgasbord, there's just so much vying for their attention. As educators, we certainly want to channel that energy into the right sources, but at the same time we need to teach our students. I think attention management is the only way we'll cope with this infobesity we're all experiencing.
Linda Lazenby:
I'll add it to my little homework list. We know you are huge advocates of our teachers. What's the number one message that you'd love all educators to hear about how they can use technology in their classroom for 2021?
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
My message is that, and this is a virtual permission slip to you as an educator because I know teachers like permission slips. If the technology is not adding value, if it is not enriching the learning, if it's not allowing the students to learn in improved ways, if it's not transforming the learning experience, please don't use the technology. I'm seeing so many schools feeling obligated to squashing new apps or new robotic software or tools for the sake of using technology. This is where I say to teachers, pull back on what you know, and fall back on what you're really good at. Particularly if you're a more experienced teacher, that's your pedagogical knowledge and your content or curriculum knowledge.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Use those two fields of knowledge to drive the technologies that you are going to use. Technology is just a tool. And it's one of the many, many tools that teachers have in their tool kit. I shutter at the thought and I see firsthand the adverse consequences of teachers feeling like they need to tick the box saying I embedded technology into this learning experience. So your permission slip is that if technology is not adding value, go back to the analog task, go back to the hands-on activity so that you can get the most out of the learning tool.
Joachim Cohen:
Just really interesting Dr. Kristy, because I think when devices first started to come out and proliferate, we all had so many apps all over our screens. I now know that if I was going to a classroom, I think I'd probably only use two, three or four throughout a year, some cool ones that I think emphasise what you're saying, they actually add value to that learning experience. It's been a real change that we've gone through.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Absolutely.
Joachim Cohen:
Now we're at a very exciting end of our podcast session here, Dr. Kristy. And with every single one of our guests, we have a challenge for you. It's called 'rocketship robots'. So a little bit like desert Island discs from a very famous podcast over in the UK. We ask all our guests about, what's the one piece of technology that you would take with you if you were going into outer space? Now you might say nothing. I'm scared, maybe we're not going to get a response from you, Dr. Kristy. But what would you take with you? Would you take anything?
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
I would, and it probably will surprise you because I know that a lot of people misconstrue my message saying, she's the anti-tech lady. I'm not at all. I really couldn't live without my digital devices, I couldn't run my family, I couldn't run my business without technology. The one tool that I would take is my phone. Because I struggle with the digital pool, but my phone has, if anything the photos that I've never uploaded to a cloud-based storage service that I should be doing. But it has all of those fantastic digital records of my family.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
I couldn't care less about the email app and the other apps that would be on it, but having that curated collection of digital footage, I think that's one of the joys of the online world. We've now got literally a wealth of technologies that used to be on a plethora of digital technologies now on one device. For me, I'm taking my phone and I'm telling you it's not to access social media, although I probably would do that. I have to put up a little Instagram story that I'm in a rocket ship. Because I'm assuming I'm going on a long journey on this rocket.
Yvette Poshoglian:
You're allowed that caveat. Thank you so much. And fair play, that was a great choice, and you're not alone in that one because, so many guests would be doing the same thing and have elected to take that piece of tech. Look, really fascinating to chat to you. Thank you so much for your time. It's really so important that we get this message out there and we start having these conversations. It's perfect to be doing that this time of year, and as educators and parents to set up our young people to start thriving within this digital sphere. So thanks so much for joining us here in the Virtual Staffroom.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Great to be here.
Yvette Poshoglian:
Linda and Joe, what are you going to take away from that fantastic discussion?
Joachim Cohen:
Look, I tell you to begin with, I am totally going to be setting up a digital fortress from my distractions. And I recently started a new regime where I was going to get up later and then work later but I'm actually going to change that around because I am totally an early bird. I'm definitely going to do that, but I was really thinking about what Dr. Kristy was saying about distractions in my classroom. I think that if I was in the classroom, I know now I would be using a really great tool that I've discovered that I use on my personal device, which is a reading mode that takes away all the ads and all the distractions from any web page that I'm looking at.
Joachim Cohen:
I think I'd be really asking my students to consider utilizing that tool so that they can stay focused on their work. That's one thing I've been thinking about. Then some of these really cool apps and programs that we've got, they can actually keep students within a particular location, and a particular app. I don't like forcing anyone to stay in any location, but it might help them to actually build their own little digital fortress through a little bit of a helping hand. That's what I'm going to take away. I was blown away.
Yvette Poshoglian:
Linda what about you?
Linda Lazenby:
There's just actually too much, but I feel a bit what you were just saying as well Joe, where some of us are really good at setting boundaries and we can say, we're not going back on our device, or we're not going to pick it up X number of times a day. But if you can't, it's finding a way to use the tools there to help us. And the same for the kids, because it might not come naturally to everyone, some people all or nothing. I know some people like that, really well. I think there's some fantastic tools and we just need to make sure kids understand what can be there to support them. Things like the Forest app where that little tree has grown and then it dies if you don't stay focused, I think is really clever to teach kids some of those skills. Yeah, a lot to take away. But what about you Yvette?
Yvette Poshoglian:
Look, I keep coming back to that thought about the attention residue. Gosh, that residue is already affecting me. And the fact that it takes 23 minutes, it can be the distraction time. Maybe thinking about how that might be affecting students who are doing some deep learning, or if you're doing some deep teaching, how you're going to keep those distractions at bay. There was another phrase that Kristy had actually that she didn't mention in the discussion, but it was about email apnea, and I absolutely loved that. It was a really interesting take on the physical reaction we have when we open an email, and we talked about those physical reactions. So maybe getting more in sync with body and my tech, that's where I'm going to go.
Linda Lazenby:
Some good new year's resolutions.
Joachim Cohen:
Yeah, absolutely.
Yvette Poshoglian:
So where to next on this big path of digital wellness? Where are we going and what are we doing? Joe, have you got something to share?
Joachim Cohen:
I do. I've been scouring the web because I wanted to help myself out a little bit here too. I found this great site called Google digital wellbeing. And it's got loads of resources, a little quiz to begin with to try and assess where you maybe need a little bit of help and a little bit of extra assistance. Then it provides some great tools and tips and tricks. A lot of it is very Android-based, but that worked for me because I had an Android phone. As teachers this is for you and maybe to share with parents, but it's all about turning those notification numbers off, putting limits in, so when apps can actually go out and contact the internet and when they can't go out and contact the internet, how you can switch profiles between work and home as well. So I think it was amazing. And I think you can apply a load of these too no matter what device you have and no matter what scenario it is, whether it be home or school.
Linda Lazenby:
That's exciting. For an iOS device, I actually deep dived into the Screen Time app in preparation for chatting with Kristy today, which was a really big mistake, because for a while there, every Sunday I would get like a pop-up of, how my average was each day for the week. I just looked horrified and then quickly turned my phone off. But I went into it last night and you can see how long you spend in each app, how many times you've picked up your phone a day, which is shocking to me. And that's my new personal goal for the next seven days at least.
Yvette Poshoglian:
Look, What do they say? Information is power, Linda. So your path is clear. You can manage how you use your phone, and actually this is the life that we lead. Maybe that's how many times you aren't going to pick up the phone each day.
Linda Lazenby:
That's not, that's inefficient. That's not okay. The number is really big. However, there's lots of really interesting things that you can see in there, like how many notifications you get. I have a lot of my notifications off, but still how many text messages you get or how many other messages? For an iOS device, you can definitely go deep into, how are you using your phone?
Joachim Cohen:
Well, I found that really interesting. I know we were having a bit of a conversation before this podcast about, you're having your phone near your bed and things like that, and having to get a real alarm clock. One of the things I find, these new inventions that we're seeing, like Google Home, Amazon Alexa, Apple HomePod. It's actually a way of integrating and connecting with technology without touching something, and I actually don't look at my phone at night, I ask Google what the time is. So I don't have to go and connect to a device. I've got that way interacting with technology where I don't have to. It's more natural, I suppose. You're also seeing things like people can now wear a ring instead of an Apple watch to measure their fitness and those other kind of measurements that we all want to find out about like sleep and how well we're sleeping. Maybe what we're going to see is that transition of technology into being more subconscious. I wonder if that's risky or not.
Linda Lazenby:
I don't want to wear a watch track my sleep.
Joachim Cohen:
What did you find Yvette as well?
Linda Lazenby:
Yeah. What did you find?
Yvette Poshoglian:
Look, this is taking it back a little bit to the more holistic approach to our children's health and I suppose balancing the mental and the physical. I went back to that old favourite Happy, Healthy Harold. The life education centre online has a wonderful bank of resources that looks at all these different elements of what students are using, how they're interacting with each other, how they're interacting with technology. So that's a nice little hub to go and check out if you'd forgotten about that one. So yeah, I think we've covered a lot of the basis there.
Joachim Cohen:
Yeah. God, I do remember Happy Healthy Harold, that's special. And that's all about a real connection with a real person who's offering advice. So yeah, great resource Yvette. whilst we often have the last word in our podcast. From now on, we want to give you a voice. So do you have a top tech tip? A review of a piece of technology, or a small story of how you've used technology in your classroom. We're going to challenge you to record it just on your iPhone, on your computer, on your Android phone, on anything you can, and we will insert it in here.
Yvette Poshoglian:
Well, as someone famous once said, "I am blown away." Linda and Joe, it was fantastic today. This podcast has been produced by the masterful Jacob Druce with the assistance and coordination of Heather Thompson, as well as many more of our T4L team members in the background. Before we go though, make sure you send us your comments, your word of techno wizardry wisdom and your thoughts for new guests and any segments that you'd like to see. Don't forget to give us a rating so more and more teachers can find us and they can get a little bit inspired to be a bit techie in the classroom. Stay compassionate, stay curious, and stay excited everyone. Thank you for joining us.
Yvette Poshoglian:
A little note, please be aware that all views expressed by the podcast presenters that's us, are our personal opinions and not representative of the New South Wales Department of Education. Discussions aren't endorsements of third party products, services, or events. Please note that, as much as we sound like it, we are not experts in legal ease, tech speak or anything in between, we're just passionate people keen to boost technology for learning in the classroom and to help build the skills in your students and for you to solve the problems of tomorrow. Do your due diligence, read further, and if we've got something wrong, let us know. We too are always learning and always improving.